what is the $$$ amount threshold of winnings before you cut a players limits? If winning limits are set- do you also limit the losses a player can have?
why are lines not triple checked before posting to eliminate any so called "bad lines"? with todays technology, books should be able to check every line being offered to its clients with lines from competition before making lines "live"---a simple program should red flag the bad lines allowing any typos/human error to be corrected before any $$ is accepted for either side.
cancelling accepted wagers for bad lines dings credibility of books
What handicapping services are you most afraid of ?
How much money did betphoenix make/lose last year...and who is the majority shareholder?
BOL on getting a response to those questions.
The guy moderating this might not even know
I would find out if I was you.... I wouldn't work for a company if i didn't know what their financials looked like and who was running the show
What percentage of players are actually winners in a 5 year window?
"Steam" gets a lot of talk on forums and I have seen you talk about it also. In Budins book he had no issue with steam coming from what he called "recreational players" as it is not necessarily the sharp side and he didn't care about uneven action on a game as he said even action never happens. I have seen you post against steam play when you have been asked about it. With so many customers in a books database how are you determining who falls into the "recreational steamer" versus the "pro steamer". Is it nothing more than a players win percentage over time? As It doesn't appear a balancing act can occur when steam is on.
Sparty,
Used to be about 6% from published figures years ago. I would say that due to the internet and availability of information, that the number is up to 8% that can actually earn year over year. There are many more players that go back and forth winning this year, losing next year etc. Remember that these are long term statistics of course.
MRSARATOGA,
That goes back to what I was saying on the line moves earlier. A low % bettor is going to hit the right side of steam on occasion, and you just let him play at full limit. Even action rarely happens, but we look at each game as a data point, and across enough time and data points 50/50 action does happen to fall into place.
When you see someone referring to a steam player, it is a direct reference to guys on your database who hit everything that moves. They really don't care what the game is, they are just trying to beat your line adjustments over and over again. It becomes a cat and mouse game with some players. For example, 3 games get released by DR. Bob or RAS, and the board lights up, steamers will try to get every moving number at the old number if it is still there, and sometimes will duck the game number, and try to hit the first half because it is the second adjustment after the full game. In cases like that, we just limit the bet amounts from those players, as they are of no real value.
Some steam happens from pure volume from a given capper, the other steam happens from syndicates and movers. The second type can get you hurt if you do not keep it in check. College football and hoops steam can go nuts at tuimes based on the sheer number of games out there.
I think the services are such scammers. But I tell ya, RAS just seems to nail those College Basket Totals. They bought Stanford Wong's sports board a few months ago.
Very good question. This should be an interesting response.
Richard -
Thanks for doing this.
Without getting in to specifics, can you elaborate on what books do to come up with innovative ways to deposit and withdraw money? How much effort is put in to this, and is there anything new on the horizon?
I think this is the biggest barrier to entry for the recreational player, and I am always curious how much weight this has on your side of the fence.
Thanks again for this thread Richard.
Really great.
Richard, I've said it before and I'll repeat it again. You are a very good salesman. I think you hit a homerun with this idea.
Got it....but using my 2K winning everytime theory in "major sports", if I an giving my $2200 you should be able to find the other side $2200 thus keeping your natural hold and 50/50 scenario where you want them. Assuming I am not giving my play to everyone else which would create a hold disparancy, know one knows what I am doing except you so the balance should stay proper. In major sports isn't that assisting in your hold volume? I guess what I am saying is that in "major sports" at a certain price point, the other side should always be there barring a play just before kickoff. That is why I always questioned guys being limited who bet $100 or so a game and win and they get limited to $25. Makes no sense at all to me. Appears to be a no brainer to create a natural hold with such miniscule amounts.
I apologize as I am not trying to gobble up the thread but here below is a perfect example of what I am referring to. I copied this from another recent thread on here that you may have already seen. The poster has been posting for a handful of years and seems legit. I know you can't speak for Beted but if we assume this is true and he looks to be wagering maybe $25-$100 a game, how does this happen? Using the 50/50 scenario he isn't tilting anything and is having no further effect on the balance sheet and shouldn't even be on the radar with those wager denominations.
I opened an account with BetEd based on advertising here on Covers. Was lucky in some wagers but they weren't for large amounts. My account shows a balance of less than $1000 but when I signed on today I received a message that said my wager limit was now only $1.00. I have only been with them for a couple of weeks. Seems strange and unfair. Has anyone else had this happen to them.
On horses, do you book all action or does it go directly into the track pools. Sometimes a track offers a pick 3 and you don't so I assume you are taking it all. If it goes into the track pools, do all shops go in through the same hub? I know American tracks have simulcast agreements with certain betting outlets.
Do all books gather half time lines from a similar source? I find it interesting that lines are quite close to each other when they come out. Why is it that half time lines don't steam as much given a 10-15 minute window of time?
You shouldn't be limited with 1K wagers in the casino. Even if you were just have some friends go place them for you. MGM has a 10K window so I doubt 1K raises any suspicions.
I never understood the concept of limiting if someone is betting away and winning. Theoritically even if I never ever lost betting 2K a game on major sports that should be easy to even off so what is the purpose of limiting? I could see if someone is chasing steam, abusing bonuses, saying they called in different than what the teller put in etc. (or the classic......"my son got on my computer and lost my money"). I know forum posters go overboard with "sky is falling" posts but I will often see "I have been limited" and even Lou has acknowledged people being limited if they start winning. There has to be more to the story as offshore books have to have a little more in the kitty than Louie the barber down the street who won't let you bet more than $100 on an event and has no till.
The answer you gave me about being limited on horse betting was not what I expected. maybe I didn't give you enough info. I said I hit 8 races in a row betting $200 to win with a payoff of at least $25. The races I hit were at three different tracks over a two week period. Before that run I never won more than two races in a row and probably lost 6 out of ten bets before that. I love betting horses and since I live in the USA I can't use betting exchanges so it's important to me that I can get good action online.by the way the two three tracks I used were Belmont, Laurel and Calder.These tracks are top tracks with lots of betting handle so I should never be limited on my betting on those tracks.
Thanks again
can BP add a rollover tracking to their site so clients can see how close they are to meeting bonus requirements?
side note- my email to you from 11/1 must've ended up in your spam filter i can send pm if you add me as friend
How deep/complex/informative is your tracking software? Is it
unique/specific to BetPhoenix or is a standard program across the
industry? How accessible is this software to the general public or
aspiring entrepreneurs?All the data is collected, the outputs are created on our end based on what we are looking for. I think most businesses in our market use either of 2 main softwares with a few independent softwares in use out there. We all manipulate the software to our own liking and needs for both UI (user interface) as well as for internal risk management.- How much action ($$$) do you take in on an average weekend? What is the hold? How much is in escrow at any given time?Hold is easy to figure with straights= 110+110/10 or 105 +105/5.The hold gets better with parlays and teasers involved.I can not directly answer all of this here though...apologies.- How many of your customers are betting over $1000 a game (on average)? Are most of these players up or down? We have quite a few, and there are both winners and losers at every level. They are however more closely balanced at the higher amounts. - Do you have in-house linesmakers or do you outsource that? Which company is the industry leader for setting and moving lines?We have both Internal and External guys handling this.We all respect Pinny, Bookmaker/DSI, Greek, Grande, Del Mar to name a few. They also move off of us at times as well, so we do get a bit of our own respect as well.- Are sports markets more economically safe than financial markets? Why is all the real money on Wall Street?Good question. I see them the same, and at the end of the day, sports teams are really nothing more than just another business. The last few years have shown us that stocks and investments are not always exactly safe either ie. Madoff, Enron, and many others. The market can be manipulated as easily as a game can be, and a few people seem to get the inside info as they do in sports. If gaming was legal, I think wall street would get beat. Looking at Betfair as an example, they were quoted at taking in more transactions per month than the entire European stock markets combined.
"• Betfair handle more transactions than all of Europe's stock exchanges combined, an average of over six million a day."
Nope, we love winners. Sometimes winners are your best employees so to speak. They definately let you know when our odds compilers are off. But like any business, if you graph performance you see the peaks and valleys and use them for the measurement of dynamics. We earn off of hold, so the valleys can be nudged up by limiting the amount won versus the amount wagered (hold). That valley can be raised a touch via the use of limits. There is no us versus them mentality on our end. Only when it comes to dealing with fraud etc, then it does become an us versus them item.
Most books will limit you if you won every bet. If you win every time, you will hurt hold versus volume, when the objective is to create better hold versus volume. If the natural hold is 4.5% on a 50/50 scenario, you can see how 100/0 would affect that position.
For those looking for theoretical hold: Hold = earnings / volume as an example: earnings / bet 1 + bet 2 adding some numbers
Hold = 10 (earnings) / 110 (steelers bet) +110 (bengals bet)
= 10 (earnings) / 220 (total amount bet in this example)
= 4.54% hold
Runner,
Sorry that I can't answer that...apologies.
LRM704,
It is good to have a presence at the places you fly your flag. As long as it is handled professionally of course. Thank you for the kind words.
Great thread Richard!!!
Very Interesting Read!
I see your max parlay payout is $140,000. Has anyone ever won a parlay that paid the max amount? and if so how many people have done so?
Do sports books try to stop or limit sharps, and if so how do sharps get their bets in,particularly if living in Vegas. Are they barred from phone accounts so they have to travel every day to several different books to get a high number of bets in?
Thanks again Richard - still reading every post....
What percentage of your book (or books as a whole) players bet an average of 1k or more per game? 3k or more per game?
Always wondered if you were a dime player, if that meant you were in the high 10% of gamblers at a book, or 90% bet a dime or more.
I realize this changes from book to book, but just a rough estimate would be great.
And I assume you would rather have 10 one hundred dollar bettors than 1 dime player? Is that right?
I had heard somewhere that BP was working on an exchange.
Is that true, and if so - what is an update and what can we expect?
hit the nail on the head. hardly anyone wagers pucks so the books cant lift a finger.
would be a great feature for a book as im sure it would attrack a ton of puck bettors (leafs fan)
Damn dude, 2 posts in 7 years and thats the best stupid question that you can come up with?
I think the reason why BoDog gets away with it is like Richard said on another answer.......marketing. Ayre did a superior job getting the name out and one could legit argue they were the priority name book at one point in time because of that marketing. Same reason as why is Brandon Lang a name tout and Ted Sevransky isn't the same name even though both may have similar batting averages......marketing. Also, we here are hard core "book know it alls" if you will. How many players have the "good book bad book" exchanges that we do on a regular basis on Covers etc. I would venture to say that most "players" don't hang on sites like Covers like we do and most are googling for an offshore site or responding to a random mailing they may have received or an ad in a sports magazine.
Would be interested in Richards take on where most players come in from over time.
Your other post was just as equally unimpressive.
1) Why do most books use the $850 max number on MG and WU? Why not $1000 or some other number?
2) Isn't it advantageous to books to develop relationships with other books to discuss the possibility of laying off plays when deemed necessary to limit risk? Along this same path if team A is getting legit heavy action over team B in a major sport, is the line most likely projecting that same scenario at all books?
3) Is there a service that books look at that shows what other books are doing odds wise? When lines move everyone seems to move at a similar time.
A couple of BP questions......
I know early season college basketball totals are controversial. Some books have them up. Why couldn't you put them up with low limits?
How come you can't "parlay" or "if bet" individual team totals as long as they don't correlate or go over the given limits? Is this just something the software can't recognize? When team A is playing team B and team C is playing team D, you can't parlay individual A total with individual C total for example.
Can you explain how "partner" or "franchise" situations work. Logans and others for example work under sportsbook.com. Is it nothing more than something like Kentucky Fried Chicken where someone pays a franchise fee, uses all the parent platforms and gets a cut of the action? If such is the case why wouldn't they go out on their own? Is it nothing more than having the resources (ie, money, software, tech staff, support staff, building etc). Also, when I have seen these situations, the lines mimic each other on all the sites. Is the parent basically booking all the action under one umbrella and dividing out the hold cut accordingly to what comes in through each respective window or site?
BK,
Of course they can, but they don't want certain people and bots cleaning thier clocks.
Just as the starting pitcher aspect inherently in the line when it's made.
As I mentioned before, some goaltenders have much better numbers against certain teams and in certain arenas than other ones.
Also there are times that a supernotch goaltender is supposed to start and a mediocre one has started. Prime example this is the Caps.
How damn tough would it be to have listed goalenders listed like they do pitchers.
Again, becuase the hold is so low for pucks books just don't care.
Here's one for ya.
Why can't you make wagers on Goaltenders in hockey like you can with pitchers in baseball. The starting goaltender is just as important as a starting pitcher in baseball ?
Goaltenders are picked as a stratgetic option also. Some have better numbers against certain teams than others. And your starting goaltender is not always your starting goaltender. Some teams platoon thier goaltenders. And some coaches will not release thier starting goaltender ahead of time.
I suspect where there is such low wagering on hockey, the books really don't give a crap about it. So why waste your time on letting your players wager on a goaltender.
Boston, we have some very good and sharp cappers on the board here. But the masses of newbies and just plain uneducated cappers overwhelms them.
The thing is every year more gamblers are born and all the advice and tips that are given is always new to a crop of them. You will always have gamblers that think taking huge juice and laying points is the way to go. You will always have ones that buy picks from touts. You will always have 6 and 8 team parlay players.
We are the most popular gambling...err.....information exchange board on the net. But we just get a small percentage of the players. As Saratoga said there are tons that never find us and type in gambling in the search box and the highest advertising books come up. Type in sports gambling and sportsbook.com and betus are right at the top.
Just wait till the goverments, local and federal get desperate enough for this horrible, kill out lives gambling to actually make them some tax money. We will see states fall inline in the next couple of years. Yeah, no way we would play it. I imagine after taxes and such we will be paying at least 15% vig.
Who said I stopped. This was my remote location this weekend for the 2nd half thread.
Richard,
I just took a look at your live blackjack rules and would like a couple of better details. How many of the 8 decks are delt before shuffle and you can double down. But can you double down on any two cards ? or just 10 or 11 ?
I got screwed over on a contest that BP was sponsoring for the tune of $825, well make that $1025 after I sent the required $200 deposit to enter the contest. Nothing like losing a dime to a scam operation like BP, don't know how these guys still have business.
Thanks BP.
A two part question:
Does upper management instruct CS Reps. to push all complaints to email? And is this done because your company does not even bother replying to emails from customers?
This seems the case, just wanted confirmation on it.
Thanks
To make public: BP (Richard) resolved this issue and credited the full winning amount to my BP account.
Thanks again.
the same name even though both may have similar batting averages.."
only bet straight wagers. They bet parlays and teasers with a slot
machine mentality. What
model. Pinny will be the business of choice for smarter bettors, but
will have to compete with exchanges more and more along the way. The
rest of the businesses you mentioned seem to fall somewhere in-between,
or are built for the smaller high risk gambler looking to make $100 turn
into a $1,000,000. Would you rather book 2 BN at 2%, or 1 BN at 7%
becomes the question. I hope Pinny is competing with smaller exchanges in the future, that is great for the player. Who are the rest of the books competing with? Bankruptcy? In that scenario, you have 20 books fighting over the 25% of parlay and teaser players left over. Can a book like Bodog offer reduced juice and stay open with their clientele? Deposit bonuses? I think even the clueless bettors have slowly figured out the trap that is the " free bonus" with the introduction to the roll over requirement.A book like Bodog must be horrified by any talk of regulation with their business model. I never took into consideration that books would have greater access to better technology with regulation. That explains a lot with regards to my position that the books are slow to evolve. I do like your idea where a player could customize their account if they so choose.That is smart, well played.I have one other question that I will post in another thread. Thanks for time, Richard.
Richard, you almost make me want to open an account with BP!
BetPhoenix,
Why doesn't your site offer sports propositions? I wanted to bet on the Heisman Trophy and other various player props. Or do you offer it and im just not seeing it. Thanks.
and pick off lines? Do you deny these people action after you've
discovered their methods?They have to parse numbers from an ip address, when you see those IP's too long, you can black hole them as needed. We also have a disclaimer on the use of bots for betting purposes.2.) Where do you think sports betting is headed in the next five, ten years? What do you think the major changes will be?I think exchanges will lead the way for the wise/semi-wise bettors. You will still see the standard books offering more frills for parlays. teasers, etc. In 10 years I think it will be legal in North America.3.) Do you think things will ever return to pre-uigea?No, it will never go back to the way it was. It will be turbulent until it is regulated. There will always be a way to play, but it has become and will become more interesting to get action down along the way.4.)
How much do you shade lines, if at all, for subjective factors (i.e.
motivation) or is it just a purely computer generated number? We take openers from our odds makers in combination with the market position. Your wiser members will let you know if your number is off in a hurry. 5.)
How sophisticated have the markets gotten over the last five years? Do
you ever see things reaching a point where there are simply too many
smart people betting that value will be virtually non-existent?There really isn't a bad gambler anymore as was true in the past. We live in the information age, and now we all know who is hurt, the weather, other factors, and so on. We all get that info pretty much at the same time now as well. Back in the day players were betting the big teams and totals without much info. That is no longer an automatic.
I noticed in another thread that Parlaymakers sent their customers a
confirmation email after you placed your bet and also when the bet had
been graded. Not a bad idea, huh?
We already send thousands of mails
daily, and we take a much larger number of wagers than that easily.
That does create some issues for server IP blacklisting based on number
of mails sent within a particular time frame. Also, all wagers are
stored if finalized and readily accessible if needed. Auto mailing
tickets is also a privacy issue, as most people may not want a wagering
ticket in their inbox as proof of gaming to a work place, or to the
significant other. I don't think it is a necessity, and most probably
do not want it as gaming is seen as a negative in North America.
However, would be a good option for those to push a send email button to
get that service if they really wanted it post confirmation.
amendment to the Fiscal Year 2011 Supplemental budget Support Act which
would allow the Washington DC lottery to offer skill games and games of
chance via the internet to District residents.They might move quicker than expected. Games of chance opens poker and online casino doors.
hope Pinny is competing with smaller exchanges in the future, that is
great for the player. Who are the rest of the books competing with?
Bankruptcy? In that scenario, you have 20 books fighting over the 25% of
parlay and teaser players left over. Can a book like Bodog offer
reduced juice and stay open with their clientele? Deposit bonuses? I
think even the clueless bettors have slowly figured out the trap that is
the " free bonus" with the introduction to the roll over requirement.A
book like Bodog must be horrified by any talk of regulation with their
business model. You are greatly underestimating a few things that the current market place has proven: 1. The number of those Parlay and Teaser plays and players are much greater than 25%. 2. Reduced Juice is great when you lose, you save 5%. However, most people feel they are not going to lose. It is selling a negative. Look at Europe's Legal environment and you see reduced shops there, but yet they are not really grasped by the casual punter. However, Bwin, Ladbrokes, 365, Willhill, Skybet, etc are a staple in their betting lives. All of those businesses are being basically carbon copied by our markets Bodog's etc. Reduced juice shops are a great tool for the smart bettor for sure, I just think that they fall on deaf ears for the ave gambler betting his team is all. Again, this is my opinion only.
paid, it basically takes 5 days to receive your check after everything
has been pushed through. If the system changed so that we went back to
instant pay/deposit ( I know some books offer it now-I mean widespread
use again), how do you think that will affect the books bottom line?.I
assume there is a financial advantage being able to hold onto a players
money for a few extra days or more if you so choose? Furthermore, you
would lose all the built in excuses the books use when there is a
payment issue ( there never seems to be many deposit issues-go figure).
The more I think about this industry, why would the books want anything
to change? You guys hold every advantage right now.I don't think it would hurt the bottom line in any way. The excuses you are referring to have to deal with 3rd parties handling coin in both directions to get these tasks accomplished. You would be surprised at the calamities of getting paid on deposit money as well. Yes, it is easy to keystroke a transaction into a system. A successful transfer may take quite a bit of time to receive. Sometimes it is never seen. It may not seem like it, but it is a two way street there. We deal with deposit issues constantly.
The grading could have been human error, or technical. Was it a main stream game that you were waiting on? Or something out of the normal like lower division soccer? That will help me out a bit to answer this question.
Hey Richard
What would you think of the idea that your book offers a bonus on all winning parlays ? UK based Bet365.com have this in place for NFL,NCAAF,NBA,NCAAB along with MLB spreads & totals both full time & half time plus runlines in baseball.It ranges from 5% all the way up to 50% bonus on winning parlays. Full details here
I think this is a great idea for recreational players who generally like to bet parlays.As you know yourself parlays are generally poor value and the sportsbooks usually make good profits on these types of bets.The bonuses offered take the sting out of the heavy house advantage on parlays whilst still allowing the book to make a decent profit on its parlay market,well in theory at least, there will be days when you have hundreds of winning 5 & 6 teamers come up for customers.Having a parlay bonus system like bet365's (who don't take players from the USA) would be a good way for your book to increase it's market share and attract new customers from the States.It would also be seen as an innovative and customer friendly move as well.I don't know if any offshore books have something like this in place at the moment as I don't really use Caribbean or Costa Rican based sportsbooks as I've no need as sportsbetting is fully legal over here.
What do you think ?
Im pretty sure the answer to question 1 is that WU requires ID to both send and recieve anything greater than $1000 (including fees). Keeping the transactions at $850 ensures that even with fees tacked on the total amount wont exceed that $1000.
But richard can confirm whether im right about that.
From what you've written earlier in this thread, 5-8% percent of bettors might be considered "winning" over the long term, year to year. I'm assuming the other 92-95% would be largely losers because of vig.
My question is: Statistically, is there such thing as a losing bettor? In other words, over the very long term on straight bets, are there people who trend less than 50%? I'm guessing no, but you tell me.
If so, does a book try to identify and retain these bettors any more than usual?
I've posted in the past but once again great job on your withdrawls. I put a request in at noon yesterday and it was available this evening.
Great Job to BP
If someone can consistently hit 73% betting half totals. How long before you cut them off ?
Gambling seems to be a no win situation. You lose when you first start due to ignorance. If you work hard and figure out how to beat it. Then nobody will let you play anymore and if they do it's for a $100.00 a game.
I was 0-2 on 2nd halfs last week. Hard to handicap the fouls at the end. You can get 20-25 points last minute easy.
It's 1st half's I crush. 20-5 on posted 1st half tourney plays last week. 4 of the loss's came down to last possesion or could of been a really sick week. I got so good by hardwork. Working on averaging for hours and hours. Finally figured it out.
Ok, lets re light this candle...........
1) Can you comment on any of the Matchbook rumors out there ie, closing, being sold, not taking US players, lack of liquidity etc.
2) Did you see the Billy Walters piece on 60 minutes? Interested in your take. I would assume if he is betting heavy he would get limited and if he has runners all over the place that limits would again come into play unless I guess if he had 10 guys in 10 different casinos playing 10G's on a game at the same time in push button fashion.
I'm not questioning what you are going through per se but if your out is to stay with the sportsbook.com chain I would suggest you keep looking.
I'd like some money to gamble with in my account. I don't plan on taking it out but I'm getting the shakes without throwing money on these games. If I lose it then nothing happens, If I win, then take back your stake. I'm a $2-$5 a game bettor so I'm not a big time player.
Did you ever get a response on my blackjack question ?
Did you see my question about the number of decks delt before shuffle and exactly what cards can you double down on ?
Some solid questions regarding blackjack...just don't think its ever wise to ask questions where you probably won't get a straight answer in return.
Even if they were cheating...you can't expect the guy to admit it
One of the biggest outs is responses like he gave...why would they cheat for a small advantage? I will answer this myself. Because small becomes large over time... a larger advantage in bj adds up in a hurry. Especially on the larger limit tables. Which is why casinos are watched like a hawk by gaming commissions.
The other excuse sites use is standard deviation. Which often times can be a legitimate reason for seeing weird things. However... it doesn't confirm or disprove the fact that sites might be fixing decks. Human nature shows greed is a strong and powerful feeling. Why settle for a 3% advantage when I can get 6% doing something that people won't even know about?
I hope I am wrong when it comes to online casinos... I know that regular casinos are often times caught cheating... and they have a stricter set of rules and regulations to deal with...so it would be hard to not expect online ones to do it or at least try to do it
Good points, but I would love to know how you do so well on second half totals, as that is some excellent handicapping by you.
mean I would risk an entire business to win a few bucks on the Live
Black Jack table. It makes zero sense to do that on something you have a
house edge on."
thank you again for taking the time out of your schedule to help me get
off to an educated start...
do you guys have an R&D department that looks at new and creative ways to seperate your book from others? other than promos and giveaways all the books are the same basic structure. what distinguishes your book from any others? It seems people pick books by limits and pay-outs, don't you feel if you you had something to seperate yourselfs from other books you would get their business. I have a few ideas that i know as a off shore bettor i would like to see in a sportsbook.
Read this on Bookies ForumIt is being reported, on many forums that, Bet Phoenix continues, to take deposits, while No pay and Slow pays continue to pile in. Bet Phoenix Players are being told, withdrawls coulds take up to 17 business day to get processed, if they get thier funds at all. Bookies Forum warned players 6 months ago, that Bet Phoenix had all the warning signs of a scam sportsbook destined to fail.
Last edited by The Runner; 08-06-2010 at 04:35 AM.
taken for this site...
http://www.askthebookie.com/sports_forum/showthread.php?256-Bet-Phoenix-Deposit-Only-Sportsbook
well at least you get a wide open chance to defend yourself......but dam what the heck is up here??