Josh_Nagel's Blog

Fully tilted by Full Tilt

By Josh_Nagel | View all Posts
Posted Thursday, September 22, 2011 04:03 PM   13 comments
This blog is about seven years overdue, but I suppose now is as good a time as any. Back then, I intended to write a piece using this exact headline to let the world know how I felt after I suspected I had been duped by the poker website.

Well, life went on and I didn’t get around to it. Now, I wish I had. As it turns out, I was far from the only one who had this sort of experience with online poker.

While interviewing poker legend T.J. Cloutier earlier this week for a piece on this site, he relayed a story to me in which he lost money under “suspicious circumstances” while playing online poker. He didn’t go into detail, and I didn’t pry, because it seems anyone who played the cyber game for any period of time has at least one similar tale.

But the exchange got me thinking about that incident seven years ago, especially since it involved Full Tilt, which earlier this week was accused of operating a “Ponzi scheme” that lined the wallets of its executives to the tune of $440 million.

At the time, I had just ventured into the online game for the first time. I decided to try both PokerStars and Full Tilt. I had heard better reviews of the customer service at PokerStars but decided to give Full Tilt a try, too, in no small part because of the star power behind the site. One of my favorite players, Phil Gordon, was a pro on the site, and I was also a fan of Howard Lederer, Phil Ivey and Jennifer Harmon, among others.

Here’s what happened: I decided to take a shot at a $330 buy-in tournament that drew 360 players and a first-place prize of about $40,000. I had been running well in live games and felt like it was carrying over in this tournament.

It was one of those days in which everything falls in place for you at the table. I was getting my fair share of good cards, playing them well, dodging trouble when I needed to, and winning all of those proverbial coin-flip hands.

With just 40 players left –- the tournament paid 36 –- I was the overwhelming chip leader and had the $40K prize in the crosshairs. I was renting a condo in downtown Reno at the time, and my deck had a nice view of the casino neon from one corner, and the site of a graffiti-tagged garage from the other. Needless to say, the money would have made a difference.

I was pumped and, shortly after returning from a break, eager to play my first hand. I believe I had A-Q or something decent. As I tried to put in a raise, I noticed my cursor was frozen and I couldn’t do anything. I tried furiously to check the Internet connection and reboot my computer to no avail.

Nothing worked. I had no idea whether the problem was mine alone or something on the site, I just knew I couldn’t play anymore. I figured if the mishap came from my computer, I’d probably just get blinded off but still likely finish around 15th or so for a decent payday.

It never happened. Several hours later I received an email from Full Tilt, explaining that the site had crashed during the tournament and in the interest of “fairness,” the resolution was to give all 360 players a full refund. The note stated that if the field already had reached the money, meaning 36 players or fewer were left, we would have been paid according to chip count. Such a scenario would have made me the first-place finisher. But Full Tilt insisted its decision was the right thing to do.

Hogwash. If a similar instance happened in a live tournament, say they ran out of cards or all the dealers simultaneously dropped dead from some bad roast beef in the employee lounge, I guarantee you the remaining players would be paid. They likely would have extended the pay table to include all remaining 40 players, and paid by chip count. Anything less, and the tournament organizers would have to fear for their personal safety when they left the property.

No such threats existed in online poker. I took the course of action that most people might. I responded to their email saying the decision was unacceptable, demanded to be put in touch with a supervisor, etc. You can imagine how that worked out. I received no real response other than the same form email sent from about six different accounts at Full Tilt.

For a long time, I couldn’t quite figure out how I was scammed, though I was sure I had been. Now, I get it: If they refunded entry money to the remaining 40 players, how would the 320 who busted out ever know the difference? They wouldn’t, and the site keeps about $105,000 in entry fees.

I pulled my money from the site and vowed to relay the story to anyone I knew who was considering trying online poker. It’s worth noting that I never had any problems with PokerStars, as my results seemed to mirror those I had in live games, and they never failed to make good on payout requests, up to and including the aftermath of Black Friday.

I’ll also admit that I was of the camp that believed we should hear from players like Lederer and Ivey regarding their roles with Full Tilt before we passed judgment on them. Well, we haven’t heard anything, and the evidence is getting worse by the day.
  
For a long time, Lederer was one of my favorite players. I played alongside him once, and met him on a few occasions while covering the industry. He always was approachable, generous, insightful and had a sense of humor not often found in what can be a cut-throat industry.
 
I still don’t want to believe he did the transgressions for which he is accused, but if Full Tilt’s executives are ever ordered to pay restitution, I might put in a claim for $40K.

13 comments
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TomE says:
09/22/11 05:21PM
The silver lining is that you had an experience which caused you to leave Full Tilt before they were closed down. You got your remaining money back at least. There were an awful lot of players with varying amounts of $$ in their accounts and none of them will ever see a dime of their dough back.

Same goes for UB. None of their US customers have seen any of their money back, and I doubt they ever will.

Actually, you were lucky to get out long before the $hit really hit the fan.

bigdean723 says:
09/22/11 05:33PM
When situations occure when the site is at fault for the tourney especially if theyre were only 40 left.. Since you were the chip leader.. The right thing to do was for them to at least give u your prize money based on your chip stack...

They do that all the time in poker stars and party poker back in the day..

Overall said, Im still shocked whats really going on with fulltilt right now....

Where is party poker and neteller when you need them these days... I used to remember same day cash outs to debit cards within hours with no problem...

Now u gotta wait for 2-4 weeks for money which is insane..

GL too yah

Josh_Nagel says:
09/22/11 07:58PM
TomE, I agree, in hindsight I am grateful that I got off the site when the getting was good. Like I said, never had a problem with PokerStars and they gave me a refund when Black Friday hit.

Thanks for the nod of support, bigdean. Yeah, with 40 players left and 36 spots paid, you'd think paying the 40 would be an easier transaction than sending refunds to 360 players. Unless something else was going on ...

Ktrain says:
09/22/11 10:24PM
Wow Great Story Josh.

I have to admit I play poker on bodog just because it's easier than venturing to the nearest card room and playing. I play real cheap SNG's because I just don't trust online poker, but still want my poker fix.

Thanks for the great story and keep them coming.

Josh_Nagel says:
09/23/11 11:41AM
Ktrain,

Thanks for the feedback. Glad to know at least one Covers reader enjoys my stories. I'm with you; before Black Friday, I was playing mostly cheap sit-and-goes on PokerStars, just to kill time and, as you mentioned, get my poker fix every now and then. On the off-chance I played higher in a tournament and made a decent score, I cashed out immediately. I'm thinking of joining that Club WPT site that gives you a bunch of free tournaments for $20 a month, but haven't done it yet.

Good luck to you.

Lemsnephew says:
09/23/11 01:29PM
Interesting story.Too bad you didn't think of the scam theory back then.It would have been easy to verify if those 320 bust-outs actually did get their buy-ins back.
Jaydub413 says:
09/23/11 01:47PM
Great article Josh. You may want to know that the software that is used by Club WPT is the exact same software that was used by Ultimate Bet which had it's own issues with a "superuser" that was able to access the software and see all of the players hole cards while playing. While I certianly do not see any issue with playing on the site as it is subscription-based, the software is not without it's own inherent flaws.
DNorman702 says:
09/23/11 02:13PM
I can't get enough of the articles highlighting the fraud of Full-Tilt. Everyone has a complaint about the RNG but to read it went much deeper than that is not at all surprising. Worst yet is that all the people who were defending Tilt and other's were shouting, "They make so much off the rake! Why would they risk their company stealing when they already make so much?" That defense most likely stalled a few efforts to un-cover the crimes they were committing all day every day across the world.

I heard Lederer is somewhere in North Korea, thats hilarious.

5t4r5align says:
09/23/11 02:40PM
I just wish you would have posted this before I deposited my money on Full Tilt a mere couple of months before Black Friday. Great article nonetheless
Josh_Nagel says:
09/23/11 05:21PM
Thanks for the feedback, fellas. Nephew, I see your point. Obviously the easiest way would have been if one of the busted players was still sweating someone in the tournament. Then, the top 40 player could have asked the busted guy if he got a refund, had he thought to do so. But I still say, even if all 360 players received a refund, it's one of the worst poker-conflict decisions I've ever seen.

Granted, I come from a biased viewpoint, but I do believe any real tournament manager you talk to would handle this the way I suggested. You don't need to be "fair" to the 320 bustos -- they had their chance, and I've been on that end of it, too. The 40 left who played for nearly 8 hours and outlasted a pretty tough field are the ones who deserved the prize pool.

Anyhow, thanks for the tip, JayDub, and 5align, I feel your pain. Hope you didn't take too big of a hit. GL to all.

Mike41082 says:
09/24/11 12:06AM
good article... I dont know how anyone ever trusted online poker, ever... I quit relativly quick, after seeing all the horrid beats, always at the most interesting times... Who really believed that the way the online poker industry was/is set up and operated, that it would be even 20% honest?... The same people who believed S&P/Moodys that Mortgage backed securities were AAA golden magic.
BCEagle89 says:
09/24/11 10:05AM
This is the definition of greed. A business designed for pure profit. I would imagine the rake on that site pulled in tens of thousands each day.

Yet they took more than they should. We trusted people who have chosen a profession where the single goal is to take the money from every opponent....every last dime of it.

Mission accomplished.

jim8165 says:
09/24/11 12:54PM
another way to see how lazy the RNG was at FTP was to play multiple tables.

If it was truly random then each game would see different cards on the board but it was absolutely amazing to see how many times you would get groupings of cards showing up in the flops across all the played hands.

It got to the point that at the end If i had a game that was lagging and saw a favorable grouping that may fill in my straight I would actually stay in the hand and would win at greater frequency then the odds would indicate.

FTP was a joke and a fraud and I hope that the owners go to prison and that the pros that supported it get clawbacked of all their ill gotten gains.

"The Hammer"

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