KeyElement's Blog

More USEFUL Information For Novices

By KeyElement | View all Posts
Posted Thursday, August 12, 2010 11:53 AM   17 comments
Several guys have said they are new to baseball wagering this year and are looking for helpful hints, so here is something for them to consider, possibly start a folder and store things like this for further study as they progress. Hope you all enjoy it.

There are 3 accepted schools of thought on baseball odds wagering and the argument for the best has been going on since time immemorial and will continue long after most of us are gone. The three basic concepts are:

 

1) Lay the juice with favorites, flat play the dogs. Undoubtedly the most commonly accepted, although most players learned that method from their dads, uncles, older brothers or bookies and have no real evidence to prove it is correct. Say the line on the favorite is -150. Most players will either play $150 to make $100 or play $100 on the dog to make $140. Although adjusting his lay figure on favorites, he makes no allowance of a similar nature for his underdogs.

 

2) Flat play all wagers. This player would bet $100 on the side he liked, accepting a profit of $66.67 on his risk if he likes the favorite and that favorite wins, and a profit of $140 on the dog if that is his choice and the dog wins. He accepts that he needs the winner (either way) and just because one side is favored does not mean they should be, or that winning probability is on their side. He controls risk, as opposed to player #1 that attempts to achieve a same, certain profit of $100 with every favorite, regardless of the odds.   

 

3) Add the juice – short play the dog. This fellow is the least common of the three and belongs in the Sanford Wong school of baseball wagering. In my opinion Mr. Wong should stick to card games, but that is another subject for another day. Utilizing this method, the same player would risk $150 on the favorite to make $100 or $66.67 on the dog to make $100. Those that play that way set the target profit as the control factor and justify it with the concept of “the higher probability of the favorite winning.” I don’t buy that at all personally and if so, shouldn’t the player just bet $57 on all favorites and $43 on all dogs, since favorites traditionally win 57% of all games played? My main objection though is that using the potential profit as the control factor seems unstable at best and contrary to the obvious fact that only risk is controllable, not profit.

 

OK, so how is the novice player to decide? I suggest tracking all three methods for at least a full season with a fourth category. Return on Risk.

The one great advantage to return on risk is that it cannot lie.

 

On a dime line a -150 favorite pays 66.67% for every dollar put at risk, regardless of which of the above methods of wagering are used.

On a dime line a +140 underdog pays 140% for every dollar put at risk, regardless of which of the above methods of wagering are used.

 

I have been involved in contests that used ROR as the winning criteria and the only competitors that really bitched were those that liked to lay a lot of heavy juice and claim they were making lots of “units”, although defining a unit is also difficult and can be different things to different people. Btw, the size or definition of the unit is also irrelevant to return on risk.

 

OK, now what is important about the offered odds number of -146? This is a very significant number in baseball dime line wagering. Someone that followed the drift of all this can solve that, or I will post the answer later.


17 comments
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Absolutxedge22 says:
08/12/10 01:53PM
Thanks KeyElement. Keep up the great work.
KeyElement says:
08/12/10 02:03PM
Thanks guys, and the answer is that at -146 the profit potential of the underdog becomes 2X that of the favorite. -146 (100/146 = .685)  vs +136. Sometimes a guy has to ask himself "Is the favorite actually twice as likely to win as the dog'? Maybe, maybe not, but it is a good question to ask and also the reason you see so many handicappers say "Man, I hate to lay over 140, but.........  " Whether they have done the math or they are starting to smell something bad.
kaponofor3 says:
08/12/10 02:07PM
"On

a dime line a -150 favorite pays 66.67% for every dollar put at risk, regardless of which of the above methods of

wagering are used.

On

a dime line a +140 underdog pays 140% for every dollar put at risk, regardless of which of the above methods of

wagering are used."


Question Key -- do the above figures take into consideration the actual estimated probability of one team winning over another? I mean, if the line is -150 but a capper believes the "true" line should be -200 or so, wouldn't that change the % payout for each dollar wagered? Same with the dogs as well.

sheeze says:
08/12/10 02:15PM
THANKS!!!!
MaddenGuru says:
08/12/10 02:19PM

Nice writeup but I think you aren't correctly applying the definition of what flat playing is...particularly in principle #2 which suggests flat playing all of the wagers.

True flat betting would mean to have the same risk/reward on your bets regardless of who wins. Let me show you an example using your numbers:

If a person's "unit" is $100, and they wanted to bet a favorite at -150...to truly flat bet it they would need to risk $120 to win $80. Assume they also like an underdog that night as well lets say the line is +140...they would need to risk $83 to win $117 on the underdog.

Now even though the person has -150 on the fav and only has +140 coming back on the dog he really doesn't have more of his bankroll invested in either game because if he splits it really doesn't matter which side wins because the profit will be the same.

fav wins = +80, dog loses = -83...net profit -3

fav loses = -120, dog wins = +117...net profit -3

lose both = -203, win both = +197

To risk the same amount whether it is a favorite or underdog isn't truly flat betting. Using your numbers you will see what I mean below:

fav wins = +67, dog loses = -100...net profit -33

fav loses = -100, dog wins = +140...net profit +40

lose both = -200, win both = +207

 

DT44 says:
08/12/10 02:20PM
i understand what you are saying about how you disagree with player #3's methods, but one thing i like about short playing dogs is, especially on online books, you get "paid" more with your wins on favorites and it makes me more willing to take risks on dogs because i know it will not hurt if a dog comes up short
KennyWoo says:
08/12/10 02:38PM

I pretty much just bet one unit on everything.  Lately my units have been $100, so I bet 100 on all my plays, whether I'm betting a team that is -115 or +155, I risk $100.  I don't think I am able to differentiate between the "quality" of plays enough to figure out what should or shouldn't be bet "more"... and if I could, then I'd wonder why I was ever wasting my money on the "less than prime" plays I was short betting.

luky_kyle says:
08/12/10 02:39PM
KeyElement says:
08/12/10 02:48PM
It does not change the payback at all. The bettors perception that it should be -200 is his perception of the edge, not the payback, so he is thinking the -200 favorite has a 66.67% chance or better of winning, and since -150 has a break even probability requirement of only 60% he feels he has a 6.67% edge with the favorite versus the quoted line. Payback is what it is and does not change no matter what the bettors perception of the true odds are.  
KeyElement says:
08/12/10 03:08PM
MaddenGuru; What you describe is not flat wagering at all, it is a variation of the 3rd method, merely substituting figures that balance each other in case of a W-L situation, and still sets the target profit (results) as the control factor.

KennyWoo is the true flat bettor, accepting less profit on favorites and more on dogs, but keeping his risk the same, flat.
KeyElement says:
08/12/10 03:15PM
With online books you generally see 10, 15 and 20 cent lines and you are correct if you are betting into a 15 cent line. If a game is -130/+120 at a dime book, the 15 cent book will first penalize the dog, making it -130/+115. The 20 cent book will go a nickel either way, -135/+115. It makes a difference on the 15 cent line only, and 20 cent lines are tough to beat either way. I suspect that you are playing at 5 Dimes, correct?
DT44 says:
08/12/10 05:12PM
yea it is, but 5dimes varies on line prices, like the new york game is -240/+220, otherwise they are dime lines. but yea it still shades to prohibiting profit on the dogs right?
K4ngur13 says:
08/12/10 05:23PM
Good info, thanks

Getty3 says:
08/12/10 05:30PM
Damn, I hate math.
studdog says:
08/13/10 10:27AM
Great thread Key.  I'm one of the new guys and soaking it in.
KeyElement says:
08/13/10 11:02AM
Our friend Getty3 hates math, as do lots of folks, but darn it, it is necessary to any successful business or gambling venture. I have an affinity for it, consequently, no burden. It seems enough guys are interested in this type of information to keep posting it, but I have much to do and may not start threads often. Ask anything at anytime and I will do my best to answer it.  
PurduePride2206 says:
08/13/10 11:05AM
good work bud 
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