tallguyindc's Blog

Why the Cowboys were right to go for the TD down 18

By tallguyindc | View all Posts
Posted Friday, October 29, 2010 08:26 PM   9 comments

I'm going to try this one more time.  I created another thread on this topic but I realize that my original post might not have been as clear as it should have been.  It was my fault because I included too much math and made it confusing.

This is an important point and I think you'll see football in a whole new light if you get it.  Similar situations pop up a lot and about 95% of the time the coach gets them wrong.

Dallas was down by 18 and on the 6 yard line with 12 minutes to play.  Nearly all coaches would have kicked the field goal in that situation.  Phillips went for it.  The announcers couldn't contain themselves talking about how stupid he was.  15 points is two scores.  11 points is two scores.  You should in no circumstances ever risk being down three scores when you could be down only two.   The number of times you need to score from here until the end of the game is the only thing that matters.

Phillips was right.  They were wrong.  I'm going to explain why.  Hopefully, I'll be clearer this time.

I think most people agree that there was really only one way to win involving the field goal.

Kick the FG
Hold NY scoreless
Score 2 TDs
Convert 2 pt Conversion
Win in OT

Do all of that and you win.  Miss a single piece of it and you lose. 

If Dallas went for the touchdown, their path to victory would be:

Make the Touchdown
Hold NY Scoreless
Score 2 TDs

Compare the two options and you see that "Score 2 TDs" and "Hold NY Scoreless" are in both of them.  Is there any particular reason to think that in either case, it is more likely that you'll be able to make 2 TDs and hold NY scoreless just because you kicked or went?  Not really.  Obviously, doing this is unlikely, but its unlikely whether you go for it or not.  Whatever probability you want to assign to this, you need to assign it to both scenarios.  Since the probability is the same, you can just remove it from the equation.

So ultimately the decision comes down to

Make the touchdown or Kick the FG + Convert the 2 point conversion + Win in OT

Sports bettors should recognize this scenario.  Wade Phillips was basically offered a choice between a straight bet and a teaser.  One low probability event vs having to complete all 3 higher probability events.  You can go ahead and place your own probabilities in there but I think you'll see that the teaser was the wrong choice.

But the analysis doesn't end there.  Both of those scenarios involve making both TDs and holding NY scoreless.  There was no realistic way that Dallas could have won without doing this if they kicked. There are several ways Dallas could have still won the game even without 2 more TDs and holding NY scoreless if they got the initial TD.  They could have won in OT with two TDs and a NY field goal.  They could have won in OT with one TD, a 2 point conversion and a field goal.

When you add these scenarios back in to the straight bet, the teaser that Wade Phillips was offered became even less attractive.


I'm sure some of you won't get this.  Some will just throw up their hands and say "two scores is always better than 3".  Some just don't want to accept that 95% of coaches routinely make the wrong decision.  The crowd can't be wrong.  The one guy that goes against it must be.  But others might get it. If you look closely at what I'm saying and you aren't instantly dismissive, I think you'll eventually come around. 

I know its counter intuitive but you'll gain a whole new understanding of football strategy if you really think about it.

9 comments
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KktdocT says:
10/29/10 08:26PM
pillyw0nka says:
10/29/10 09:30PM

So both of those situations are exactly the same except one involves converting 2pts and winning in overtime.

Are the odds of converting a 2ptr and winning in overtime greater or less than the percentage change of Dallas winning the game if they fail on 4th compared to making a FG?

So make a fg = x% to win the game

Failing on fourth = y% to win the game

if the change/ratio from x% to y% is greater than the (odds of converting a 2ptr and winning in overtime), then Wade stinkin Phillips made a bad call.

tallguyindc says:
10/29/10 09:57PM

 

You're on the right track. 

Which is more likely?

Failing on fourth? or the possibility of failing on any one of  the kick, the two point conversion or in overtime?

You probably make it on fourth  about 35% of the time.

You probably make the kick 97%.  You make the two pt conversion 45%.  You win in OT 50%.

So the probability of all 3 of them is .97 * .45 * .5 = 21.8%

35% > 21.8%

Wade made the right call. 

 

 

Fresh952 says:
10/30/10 06:00AM
 Totally Agree! 
theclaw says:
10/30/10 11:24AM
Your making "one big mistake" with the senerio you laid out above.

Your "assuming" Dallas gets a 1st down, and then your "assuming" Dallas would then go on to score a TD. No-where in your senerio do you draw out Dallas's senerio to win "if" they fail to get a 1st down , which of coarse is very, very possible.

Your senerio makes not 1 but 2 assupmtions, kicking a FG is as close to a 100% garuantee of a score as can be had, and is a senerio which makes "no assupmtions".

Going for it on 4th down put's all your marbles in 1 play, kicking the FG spreads your marbles out over more plays(oppurtunities to win). Your senerio above "assumes" that this one basket will succeed.

pillyw0nka says:
10/31/10 02:47PM
Another terrible 4th down Wade Phillips go for it going into the 2nd half. I suppose the statistics said go for it, o well, could be a 1 td game going into half.
tallguyindc says:
10/31/10 05:01PM

As a matter of fact, they did. 

I think part of the issue is that the reporters and the media never focuses on this sort of thing unless it doesn't work.

I wasn't watching that game.  I was watching Lions/Redskins.  The Lions had 4th and 1 on their own 10 yard line down 5 with 3:00 to go.  The announcers said "I don't know I think I'd kick the fg here".  The Lions went for it made it and won the game.  If they kicked the field goal, they very likely would have lost. 

The point is that after the Lions did what the announcers said they shouldn't do the announcers never mentioned it again.  Read tomorrow's newspapers and see if anybody even devotes a sentence to the "gamble" that won the game. 

You know damn well that if they hadn't gotten the first down, the announcers would have talked about it endlessly for the last three minutes.  It would have been the lead in all the newspapers.

The thing here is that they only talk about these sorts well calculated risks when they don't work.  That leaves the casual fan with the impression that they never work.  That misimpression is the problem.  Go back and analyze all these types of decisions (not just the failures) and you'll see that its the right thing to do.

jaguarxj8 says:
10/31/10 05:19PM
right call going for td........if an offensive line can not make a block to sprint the running for a one yard gain on the goal line in front of their fans and with the circus they have shown the last four weeks against a defense ranked 30th in the league they all deserve to be taken out of the game, withhold their paychecks for the week and go sit by jerry jones on the skybox......
tallguyindc says:
11/01/10 05:31PM
Theclaw,

You have it 100% backwards. Kicking the field goal doesn't give more opportunities to win. It gives more opportunities to lose. You're right, the Fg is very high probability, but after that you need almost everything else to work your way. You need to hold NY completely scoreless. You need to get the 2 two touchdowns. You need to get the two point conversion. You need to win in overtime. You are assuming all of that will happen.

I'm not assuming anything. In fact, I'm very clear on the fact that the probability is that the touchdown won't work. But the probability on the touchdown working is higher than the probability on all of the things you need to happen if you kick.

In a way, I am putting all my marbles into one basket. But putting all your marbles into one basket is better than putting them all into one basket then transferring them to another and another with the knowledge that if even a single basket fails, you lose all the marbles.

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