vanzack's Blog

Who is "Vegas"?

By vanzack | View all Posts
Posted Wednesday, June 11, 2008 10:15 AM   12 comments

Whenever people talk about lines, line movements, and results - there is always one consensus - "boy, Vegas sure knows what they are doing when they make these lines".  I have been searching for the elusive "vegas" for some insight, and have made some progress.

There are two main schools of thought amongst gamblers about how lines are set.  The first is that lines are set by "vegas" in an attempt to trap or lure you in to betting a side.  This introduces the term "public" to the discussion - the "public" is the square or novice bettor who falls for not so obvious betting pitfalls.  Of course, "vegas" knows  more than the "public" so they set a line that looks inviting on the surface, but they know they have the edge when you bet that side.  The people who believe this theory think that the lines come out with one purpose in mind, to get as many people to bet on a side of the game that vegas has an edge on, and then over time vegas makes a killing.

The second school of thought on linemaking is that "vegas" just wants to have even action on both sides of the game, and make guaranteed profit from the vig.  They dont know anything more than you and I know, and in fact they dont even set a line to reflect what they think will be the result of the contest, they set a line only to attract even action on a game.  In this case - "vegas" is not in to the prediction of results, they are in to the prediction of wagering dollars.  They dont care who wins or loses, they only care that they have even action on both sides.  In theory, all of their work is done at the time of kickoff of the event and they dont even have an interest in the game itself because they have made their money already just by brokering money between the winners and losers and keeping a commission.

There are heated debates about this.  There are businesses built around this.  People pay for information about who the "public" or "sharps" are betting on.  People bet real money not on who they think will win a bet, but on whether or not that team has "public" or "sharp" money on it.

After every game that comes right down to the wire with the spread, you hear people everywhere say things like "boy, isnt it amazing how those linesmakers put out a line that comes right down to the last play?"  Since I subscribe to the idea that lines are made ONLY to match action on a game, I always respond by saying it is ME AND YOU who set the lines, not the linesmakers, so WE are the experts.  If lines move by betting dollars only, then a final line should equate to the point where half is on one side and half on the other, and at that point you and I have set a perfect line.  Joe Watercooler after the superbowl has no idea of this concept - but you and I should.

I see people that follow "public" and "sharp" line movements as lazy gamblers looking for an easy answer - that holy grail that will give them a formula for success.  There are so many problems with the theory - the biggest is probably the nature of the numbers used for "public" and "sharp" money are inherently skewed, vague, and possibly purposely not accurate.  And beyond that is the simple fact that there are no proven historical statistics on when and how to use the numbers with any kind of statistical significance.  It is always fuzzy science - things said like "you cant use it all the time, you have to pick your spots" etc... that really do nothing for anyone except give another astrological type of hocus pocus to handicapping.

"Vegas" sets lines to get even action on games.  "Vegas" does not trap you.  "Vegas" has plenty of money to make by just matching action and taking no risk.  "Vegas" has no more information about future results than you or I do.  "Vegas" doesnt care about "publics" and "sharps" except to match action. 

How do I know?  I asked him and he told me.

12 comments
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atlheatholder says:
06/14/08 05:16AM
Good Blog, Van...

Especially good info for youngsters (or lazy gamblers as you put it) on the "public" & "sharp" angles as well as "traps". Your last two sentences are priceless.

ChAoSoRb says:
06/16/08 01:03AM
well all i can say is that here the last few years "vegas" is so damn lazy they allow offshore books to make their lines.. so much for big bad "vegas" tricking people into losing moolah
claycourtlesson says:
06/17/08 10:38AM
Good stuff, Van.

However, there are certainly times when "Vegas" or "Off-shores" or "Books," if you will, do and definitely takes stands on games.

ravenzone says:
06/17/08 11:54AM
Well said Vanzack. Good stuff, Thanks

ravenzone

stackedpack says:
06/17/08 12:57PM
Most of the time I agree with your analogy that the line is set to divide public action. But I only bet on games where lines are soft or if I think its a trap. I flat bet spreads, and do a weighted flat bet on moneylines and it has paid off for me. I track where the "public" goes to confirm or deny my original read of a trap line.

Most games are not fixed, but enough of them are. The smartest people in the the gambling industry are those setting the lines because they control the fate of billions of dollars a year. There are traps indeed. At least one every week in the NFL and 3 to 4 every week in baseball. Most of my baseball is based on 3-game series traps which almost has 1 every week.

mikeny says:
06/17/08 01:01PM
I agree with claycourtlesson, line makers do take a side, and they skew the line to create action on the side they want....more often than not and regardless on what side the puiblic is on, if you wager against the line change you will win more often than going with the line change. This seems to be more prevailent for football and basketball, not as much for baseball.

This season I have noticed especially NBA and college basketball half time spreads are definetly created to sway action on one side..

funnyman1117 says:
06/17/08 02:24PM
Both ideas are true... Vegas sets a line to get equal action on both sides... Yet at the same time the science of the average bettor comes into play the average bettor likes the favorite and the over... The value more often than not lies with the dog and the under... What happens Vegas inflates the lines knowing they are going to get more than enough action on the favorite and what happens the betting public leaves them with the value

Perfect example Game 2: The public bet the Lakers so hard that the best team in the NBA became a home dog

I mean come on the Celtics are 5-0 ats and there is alot more money backing the Lakers than the Celtics

Had those lines been right on my guess that the Lakers would have covered both games they won

acutance says:
06/17/08 03:32PM
I agree completely that the Vegas has no inside information, and just wants to balance its books. And further, that it's the public that moves lines by betting on one side or the other. If Vegas has too much action on one side, it moves the line to equalize. Today, we expect to see a lot of money come in on Boston. We expect to see the line move up, to encourage action on the LA side to offset that Boston money. Last game, a despiration three pointer by House at the end covered the spread for us Boston betters. It could just as easily have gone the other way. Who was to know, or could know? Yes, over the long haul, the public loves favorites and the over. So if you see it as a toss up, take the under and the dog. Best advice I could give. But I'm in early on Boston today.
lanastasis says:
07/17/08 06:03AM
Just saw this post and wanted to give you kudos for more enlightening thought in these very dark ages. I would say there are some instances, however, where Vegas will trap a side. But like you said, who knows when this happens. It is not an exact science, if a science at all. I never waste my time with line movements or any of that junk with baseball. And as for the NBA and the NFL, I conducted heavy research of my own into line movements, reverse line movements, etc. and came up with no conclusive long-term strategies. People always look for an easy way out and subscribing to this kind if stuff seems like one of them. No thanks for me. I just want to find value and hammer it out.
MWC says:
07/25/08 11:04AM
Just ask Kenny White. Seriously though, as vanzack has stated, the "send out" number is just that, a send out, an attempt to have equal action. You and I will push the number in one direction or another.
fxcarroll says:
07/29/08 01:54PM
I think you have mentioned but not formally recognized a third school of thought. I believe that "Vegas" sets lines ao that there is an equal chance that the result lands on either side (of course only for -110 double sided wagers). For example, when it comes to setting NFL lines the oddsmakers almost always are more influenced by home field advantage than the public. Far too many games go off with one side being chosen at a clip of 60% or higher for be to believe that the oddsmakers are attempting to split the action. This isn't to say that there is any sort of trap in place and the lesser chosen side has a better chance of winning. It's just to say that the oddsmakers recognize that if they simulate a coin flip and everybody is wagering 1.1 units to win 1 unit they will win in the long run. Short term they could care less is 80% of the money is on tails for any given flip because in the LONG RUN they will profit from the simple law of averages.
drudatt108 says:
09/08/08 01:33PM
Great stuff VAN!!! You don't post much but when you do, it's very interesting. I suppose after 7 years of posting, it can get a little boring. Always good to see you when your around. Keep schooling us and BOL.
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