Today, we went from being very cold to entering the ice age of online gambling. The good news is, the ice always seems to melt eventually.

Only 20% of any massive floating iceberg is visible on the surface of the ocean.

Duely noted though.

Explain.

Canada is not the 51st state.

Yes.

United States doesnt = Canada

Get it?

Couple of things:

1.  This is for POKER only.  Sports betting is not on the table for legalization.  So if you want a licensed, taxed, and regulated poker landscape - I think we are headed in your direction.

2.  The method here is nothing short of mafia gangsters by the DOJ.  Is that justified?  Is it really justified to shut down these places at the peril of thousands of Americans money, not counting foreigners who play there legally?

Can you imagine if you lived in Germany, and you played at PS, and had 50K there LEGALLY and today because of the USA you couldnt get your money?  Imagine if Germany placed an indictment on your local bank, and your savings were suddenly gone?

But who knows where the money is, and how much was confiscated by the DOJ.

I agree with your statement as a business model - but this is an unregulated for profit organization - that might or might not have protected their assets wisely.  Who knows?  Maybe all players money is safe, but in the indictment it said that 75 bank accts were confiscated by the DOJ, who knows how much was in there?  Who knows if the owners shoveled money away in some hidden acct?

It is a clusterfuck for players now.  I just cant imagine living in Japan or something and making my living doing something, and then all of my money is in jeopardy because of another country.

Hopefully it plays out well for everyone, but it isnt going to be a quick conclusion.

Why dont you mention what party did this shit?  It was the republicans who added it to the port security bill in the middle of the night, because the knew the democrats would have to pass the bill knowing that if they didnt pass the bill the democrats would take the total blame for anything that might happen in the country.

2 fucking piece of shit republicans were designers of the whole attack on gambling.

Senator John Kyl and Congressman Bob Goodlatte started this whole nightmare. This was all done under Bush's time in office.

no reason really, just wouldn't really want a rep from the site to see this,,, dumb reason i know

Guys - I get the feeling that people are worried about legality with their individual betting.

Dont be.  This is not about bettors.  Do whatever you want - keep playing - stop betting - take your money out - or leave your money in.  You are not in danger of being arrested or pursued by the DOJ.

You might be at risk for losing your money though, and the point of this thread was to issue a warning to keep your eyes and ears open - because there has probably never been a more volatile time in offshore gambling than there is right now.

Wrong.

If you are FACILITATING a money transfer, you can be pursued.

The DOJ is not interested in hassling poker players.  The law prohibits everyone except the player - the bank, the provider of the gambling service - but not the gambler himself - to do these transactions.

Dont go scaring people with bullshit that you know nothign about.

Once again, the issue is not whether the site is up and running as of this moment.

The issue is whether they are going to be able to pay, and continue to pay, existing players.  And whether they can be an ongoing entity to service poker players worldwide.

Your point is that because you see people in Europe playing poker right now that everything is OK?  Did you expect them to shut down and cause more of a panic?  You cant be serious.

Im not an expert in anthing.  In fact, I clearly state when I am stating an opinion, and I choose my words carefully.

I am stating that things are very fluid right now, and you should be aware of what is going on.

If you assume I am the "foremost gambling expert" at covers because I make a post and there is 18K views and 175 responses - that is your assumption - but I dont claim to be that.  I am just another guy with an opinion who might or might not be right about anything - but can certainly intelligently discuss things rather than making blanket claims about things I know nothing about.

Did you look up the difference between indict and arrest yet?

Still waiting for that report.

BTW dumbfuck - why dont you go on record and state whether you would advise having money in books that accept americans like Bookmaker or Greek?

You are like the guy who bashes a guy who makes picks, but never makes a pick himself.

Tell us how you would advise a guy betting the NBA playoffs with his whole bankroll split between BM and Greek.

Go on record.

1.  The DOJ didnt freeze your acct. 

2.  You dont even know for sure what you are talking about.  You say "probably".  Just go over to twoplustwo and find out for yourself if you can withdraw from Europe or not.  Im onot going to fill you in, but if you are tryign to be the new foremost gambling expert on covers - you might want to be sure of things you post.

Im done arguing with you.  Its silly, and I feel stupid for it - especially when this is important - and you are not.  So this is the last response to you - go read post #201, and please take it to heart.

sorry pal you better learn how govt works. This has nothing to do with Obama right now. All this crap was started under Bush and once it became law, it didnt matter who was in office, the law had to be carried out. Only way it could be stopped,is to repeal the law, so learn how the fuck govt works before running your dumb punk ass mouth. The republicans and bush started this crap, so blame the real fuckers who did this to all of us.

Like i said only way to stop this shit is for the democrats to repeal this bogus bill that shopuld have never been passed,but the dems dont have enough votes to do it. In fact if you ever followed any of this stuff, you would have known barney frank and another democrat tried repealing this fuckin bill when Obama first got in office, but they couldnt do it.

Religous fuckin republicans did this shit and now its just being played out.

Obama admin is just carrying out the laws that were created by those republican fuckers and cant just not carry out the laws because they dont agree with them.

trots............................

this might actually be a blessing in disguise

i can only believe that based on the potential taxable revenue that there will be at least legalized U.S. internet poker in the near future

as to sports betting, i have no clue because there will be vast opposition from the respective leagues, namely, the NFL 

Im just thinking, Those sites that shut down did something fuck up like (illegal) transactions with those banks. U know like fraud and so on and so on. So the goverment came after dat ass. But think about it, new site, new deposit method, and back to the tables. I don't know if it's that easy but just a thought. Its kinda like the sites fault though, They should have just stop the credit card process back in 06 and just stick with the legal method of depositing your funds to your account (WU) but greed got to them and all US players are fuck up. So once again the goverment came after dat ass. Sorry for the US players but cant u just go to another poker site that up and running that accept US players and WU your money into your account. Dont know but just a thought

These sites are offshore so I think WU will be no problem

but will the goverment come after the US players next???

HMMM. Looks like if you have your bank account involved with any online gambling, you might be fucked but I could be wrong.

Am I?

1.  The govt has never come after the player.  If the poker busts from 6 weeks ago are any indicator, the govt actually helped the sites make payments to US players.  You have done nothing wrong unless you have evaded taxes, or used the sites to launder money.  Basically, if you pay your taxes, you have very little to worry about.

Is it possbile?  I guess.  But historically they have no interest in the player. 

2.  The likelihood of you getting paid is pure speculation.  Please update this thread on the progress.

Money.

I agree about poker, but not about sports.

Sports betting is a long long way away from being legalized - just my opinion.

The purpose of this thread was to tell you to keep your eyes and ears open.

Today is another brick in the wall.

Apparantly, it was only a domain grab.  Bookmaker can be accessed at www.bmaker.ag .

But it sure seems obvious that this might not be the last move by the DOJ.  Im sure they are not satisfied with the 10 domain names they grabbed today.  It would seem logical that it was a first shot.

KEEP YOUR EYES AND EARS OPEN, THINGS ARE HAPPENING QUICKLY.

Just read the indictment.  It doesnt sound good at all.  This sure doesnt sound like a simple domain name grab - I wouldnt want to have any money in any books affected today.

Read this from the affidavit: 

The affidavit filed in support of the seizure warrants alleges that Homeland Security Investigations in Baltimore, Maryland opened an undercover payment processor business, called Linwood Payment Solutions. Linwood allowed undercover agents to gain person-to-person contact with top managers of gambling organizations to discuss the Internet gambling business, to negotiate contracts and terms of the processing, and to handle the intricate movement and processing of collection and payment data from the gambling organizations to the banks.

 The affidavit alleges that on November 12, 2009, a Maryland-based online gambler and cooperating informant confirmed that he/she frequented gambling sites, opened accounts and gambled in Maryland. The gambler agreed to set up online gambling accounts and was provided $500 to place bets on gambling websites. The gambler created an account on a BetEd website and placed several bets. On March 30, 2010, BetEd used Linwood to wire transfer $100 in winnings to the gambler’s bank account.

 Linwood allegedly processed gambling transactions since 2009 for BetEd, K23 and other gambling organizations using banks located in Guam and Charlotte, North Carolina. According to the affidavit, between December 2009 and January 2011, Linwood processed over 300,000 transactions worth more than $33 million, including transactions for individuals in Maryland. Between February 2010 and March 2011 alone, BetEd directed Linwood to wire transfer over $2.5 million of collected gambling proceeds to bank accounts in Panama; and between February 2011 and April 2011, K23 directed Linwood to wire transfer over $91,000 of gambling proceeds to bank accounts in Portugal and Malta.

The indictments and affidavit seek the forfeiture of the bank accounts used to process the gambling transactions, as well as domain names of websites used by the defendants to further the online gambling transactions.

The defendants face a maximum sentence of five years in prison for operating an illegal gambling business and a maximum of 20 years in prison for money laundering. No court appearance has been scheduled.

Heres the thing - and I guess I should articluate it maybe a little bit better:

There will always be places to bet if you want to bet.

But, if you are like me - you make money by having the following conditions - and these are required:

1. Free market with competitve available lines amongs dozens of options of SB's.
2. Free movement of funds between books and home banks
3. Risk of forfeiture of money low due to books going under or confiscation.

You cannot accomplish those three things as an American bettor (unless you set up an offshore presence). In fact, you cant accomplish ANY ONE of those. Up until 2006 we had ALL of those.

So this post is not telling anyone that there wont be a sportsbook somewhere that is always willing to take a deposit and allow you to bet, or find a track to bet at, or a local. This post is saying that if you relied on the 3 things listed above in your method - you are screwed.

If you choose to keep money at Greek or BM, or any other SB that accepts Americans, you are PAYING A FEE FOR RISK. Risk is higher than ever, and if you are willing to accept that risk, there is a cost to it. Im not telling you not to do it (as I have been asked several times in this thread "should I take my money out") - I am simply telling you that you have to evaluate your risk tolerance - because pretending that there is no risk is silly.

You cant compete across sportsbooks for lines, you cant assure getting the lowest line available because you only have a couple of options, you cant move money freely and there is a cost and a risk cost to doing so that has never been higher - throw those things together and you have a recipe for non-profitabliity. I cant see how you can beat that longterm.

Can you go set yourself up in a foreign country with banking, address, and have sportsbooks like Pinnacle, Betfair, Matchbook etc and insulate yoursel? Yes. Does the average person want or have the means to do that? No.

From my point of view (opinion) - I dont know how anyone can make money doing this betting in to -110 lines, with very little competitiion for diversity of spreads, no exchange marketplace, no way to move money freely, and added risk cost. It seems impossible to me. The threshold is just way too high, out of the range of mortal handicappers to win longterm.

So make your own decisions. Keep your eyes and ears open. I wouldnt be surprised if these SB's were shut down tomorrow, and I wouldnt be surprised if they were open in 10 years. The US govt might not be too interested in them because sportsbetting is not going to be legalized anytime soon - and this was just a Hiroshima move to clear the way for the rebuilding contract to be issued to the corporate casinos - who now have a clean slate. But none of this matters to the guy who is trying to be profitable, and finds that the landscape is like trying to play ice hockey on a frozen waterfall.

I dont know much about the inner workings of SB's. I do know that they are not run by rocket scientists and beacons of legitimate business. I also know that poker sites and SB's share processors, and processor techniques.

I think the biggest protection SB's have is that the DOJ might deem them just too small to even matter right now, and that they dont fit the profile of what their objective is - which I feel is to clear the way for corporate legalization.

But dont you think the DOJ has experimented with sending the same WU's you do? Dont you think they know that Michael Jackson Gonzalez is not a real person living in the Philippines and that the SB's have set up a network of WU processors who give out dummy names? Dont you think they could and would squash this if they wanted to and felt the time was right?

Once again, you the sender are in no danger - but the risk here is simply knowing that there are lots of Jamie Moyer fastballs sitting belt high waiting for the DOJ to hit out of the park when they want to. This is my opinion, I have nothing concrete to back this up other than my own observations - but I think you have to be in serious denial to assume that if the DOJ wanted to that they couldnt unravel this ball of yarn anytime they wanted to.

BetUS - square central for US players - says goodbye to US players.

Just the beginning boys.

Keep your eyes and ears open.

GL with your pursuit.  I am in a similar situation, but not for poker - for sports gambling.  My problem is that even if I get to the books I want through circumventing the system (like you state), the fundamental landscape has changed with regards to HOW i make money sportsbetting. 

Kind of like you where you have far less fish than in 2005, less ways to move money, more risk, more expense - I have the same thing in that I cant get 20 different lines for the same event, move money, more risk, more expense etc - it effectively defeats my ability to be profitable - or at least seriously cuts me off at the knees.

I wish you good luck - I know that there are tons out there like you - and I sincerely hope you are able to maintain the lifestyle you have carved out for you and your family and are unfairly being persecuted for.  Luckily (and it is only luck really), I had about a 10 year run of favorable conditions which allowed me to save some money, so I will just sit out for a while and see if the weather changes.

GL

Just stop.

You continue to insist on proving yourself to be uninformed at best, and moronic at worst.

Stop, please.

Heres the thing - and I guess I should articluate it maybe a little bit better:

There will always be places to bet if you want to bet.

But, if you are like me - you make money by having the following conditions - and these are required:

1.  Free market with competitve available lines amongs dozens of options of SB's.
2.  Free movement of funds between books and home banks
3.  Risk of forfeiture of money low due to books going under or confiscation.

You cannot accomplish those three things as an American bettor (unless you set up an offshore presence).  In fact, you cant accomplish ANY ONE of those.  Up until 2006 we had ALL of those.

So this post is not telling anyone that there wont be a sportsbook somewhere that is always willing to take a deposit and allow you to bet, or find a track to bet at, or a local.  This post is saying that if you relied on the 3 things listed above in your method - you are screwed.

If you choose to keep money at Greek or BM, or any other SB that accepts Americans, you are PAYING A FEE FOR RISK.  Risk is higher than ever, and if you are willing to accept that risk, there is a cost to it.  Im not telling you not to do it (as I have been asked several times in this thread "should I take my money out") - I am simply telling you that you have to evaluate your risk tolerance - because pretending that there is no risk is silly.

You cant compete across sportsbooks for lines, you cant assure getting the lowest line available because you only have a couple of options, you cant move money freely and there is a cost and a risk cost to doing so that has never been higher - throw those things together and you have a recipe for non-profitabliity.  I cant see how you can beat that longterm.

Can you go set yourself up in a foreign country with banking, address, and have sportsbooks like Pinnacle, Betfair, Matchbook etc and insulate yoursel?  Yes.  Does the average person want or have the means to do that?  No.

From my point of view (opinion) - I dont know how anyone can make money doing this betting in to -110 lines, with very little competitiion for diversity of spreads, no exchange marketplace, no way to move money freely, and added risk cost.  It seems impossible to me.  The threshold is just way too high, out of the range of mortal handicappers to win longterm.

So make your own decisions.  Keep your eyes and ears open.  I wouldnt be surprised if these SB's were shut down tomorrow, and I wouldnt be surprised if they were open in 10 years.  The US govt might not be too interested in them because sportsbetting is not going to be legalized anytime soon - and this was just a Hiroshima move to clear the way for the rebuilding contract to be issued to the corporate casinos - who now have a clean slate.  But none of this matters to the guy who is trying to be profitable, and finds that the landscape is like trying to play ice hockey on a frozen waterfall.

Yeah, if you want to bet in to parimutuel lines at 20% house hold compared to 4.5% house hold even at -110 in sports.

Horse racing is a losers proposition.  Nobody wins, I dont care who you are.  You cant beat 20% house hold - not only that - you cant beat lines that adjust when you bet 100 bucks on it because the markets are so shallow.  Bet 100 bucks to win on a typical horse race and your odds move - so not only do you have to beat 20% house hold - you have to beat the disadvantage you are giving yourself by making a wager in the first place!

Let me give you another "worst that can happen".

The Jamaican govt cooperates with the US Govt and allows a raid and confiscation of all Greek bank accts. 

Hows that?  Is that worse than they told you?

Please.....

I was reading this thread....

What a fucking disaster the BetEd situation is.

Yes, you could be cynical and say "if you played at Beted, you deserve this shit" - but lots of real people are losing lots of real money - and it sucks.

I have one piece of advice - the same advice I gave 6 weeks ago when this thread started - IF YOU HAVE MONEY AT A SPORTSBOOK THAT SERVES AMERICANS - YOUR MONEY IS AT SERIOUS RISK AND YOU SHOULD ACT APPROPPRIATELY.

That has not changed.  It has only been solidified by the DOJ actions of this week.

If you like to gamble that is one thing - but you are taking a huge risk before you even place a wager if you have money at any of these books.

I hope the people get their money back.  I would put the odds at about -10/1 against.  The weeks will pass, and there is just no money if the DOJ has confiscated it, and the principles have bigger things to worry about for themselves.  It is a clusterfuck.

Pez -

Here is how I see it.....

Sports gambling, for whatever reason, is not seen as "a game of skill".  Poker players have been much more organized and have made inroads in to that concept of SKILL being applied to playing poker.

Add to that the fact that every American pro sports league is very against gambling (dont understand this either, but is fact) - I just cant see enough people on our side who care and are willing to commit dollars to the cause.

I hope I am wrong.

From what I understand, the accounts were in Guam (US Territory).

But if the DOJ puts demands on other countries to confiscate bank accounts, I dont think there is too much resistance.

I started this thread on April 15th.

Since then, countless books have closed, and there is really only one real holdout - Bookmaker.

It is unreal.

For those who said I was overreacting, or playing chicken little - look back on this thread.  There is nothing left for Americans. 

The end of online gambling isnt near, the end of online gambling is HERE.

Oh - and if you come back and say "well my book, www.bwtXXXXX.com is still open" - how long do you think those C and D books will be open when all of the A books are closing thier doors?

Im sure there are a handful of Betus, or Betthem, or Betsquares out there - but it wont be long.

I think it is at least 50/50 that 5dimes and BM will follow suit within 30 days.

It is just fucking ridiculous.

Everyone is "freaking out about this" because it totally makes it impossible for certain types of gamblers to wager on sports.  Its great that you can deposit 100-500 bucks at any book that charges any price (-110, -120...), but lots of folks actually care about things like risk and prices, and bet more than 20 bucks a game.

That is not disparaging you at all - you are perfectly allowed to do what you do - but to pretend like because you are fine that everyone is fine - and untouched by all of this - is totally naive.

Like I said above - if you are a rec gambler - just want somewhere to make a bet, are price INsensitive, and are willing to take on the risk - you will always have somewhere to bet.  There is a slice of the pie that fits this profile.

Unfortunately, there is also a larger slice that is totally fucked.

It is not the end.

But just like Marijuana, the only thing that keeps the price where it is for a weed is that it is illegal and scarce. 

The balance of power between book and player has sharply turned to books in the last year, and the player has no power whatsoever.  Want to bet online?  You have no power - NOTHING - you have to accept anything they throw at you - and you have to accept all of the risk - and all of the cost.

So while there will always be somewhere to bet (I agree with you), "bettting" is not the only goal.  There will be no competition on lines, prices, risk - basically you have to accept far worse conditions for every wager you make.

In order to get a European book acct, a pinnacle acct, a MB account, or a Neteller acct, you need the following:

1.  An address outside of the USA, and a utility bill in your name at the same address, and preferably a drivers license with the same address.

2.  An IP address of that same country.

3.  A bank account in that same country.

Once you have those three things, the sports gambling world is your oyster.

This is actually the easiest.

Google "private VPN" - there are lots of companies - if you need specifics - PM me.

If you have an IP of another country, you can use that IP from anywhere, including in theory while you are in the US.

What region are you LRM?

Is that Canada?

Actually, google "private VPN poker"

Im neutral on it.  Depends on your arrangement.  Hard to make a blanket statement because everyone is different.

Thanks for the compliment.

In order to get Neteller, or move money in and out of any book directly.

None of those organizations will deal with a US bank.

BTW Dosan - google similar topics but use "poker" in your search.  There is a lot out there since 4/15 - simply because poker players outnumber us 100-1.

Lots of other experiences are detailed with this exact type of thing.

I have nothing to go on to make a judgement.

It seems as likely to me as anything else.  But who knows.

Im just glad this Copa America tournament is over.

Bad at math too Ricke? Not surprising

Guilty. 

I get the NFL Ticket Sports-pack every year but I wouldn't if I wasn't betting on the games.

Not just for the rush of watching your bet win or lose but to cap for future bets also.....I'll never understand how some people just cap through #s without watching these games and rely  on a scoreboard ,especially halves and quarters unaware of injuries,fouls,weather conditions,ejections,or benchings to name a few.

Government run gambling?. Not likely...Ever seen......

  Pro-line Odds.

The US is becoming heavily regulated by the Feds ...who want in your life in the worst way.. I live in VA and Goodlatte and his buddy FRank Wolf , who has a problem with OTB's, are to blame .

I stopped in 2006 and got back in when Covers gave me a free $100 account   in 2010 and i've cashed out 3 times .. have a little left ..so i will wait and see what transpires.. but this was a Republican -backed deal in 2006 ...Barney Frank of all people want to help us.. Over-Regulation sucks

There's always online horse racing guys.      Completely legal.

Start learning how to read the Daily Racing Form.   

Of course most of you degenerates probably already know how to read the Form.   

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